Sarah Ware Murder Finale and Atlantis

It's finally here!  The final part of the Sarah Ware historical true crime series.  Let us know what you think happened to Sarah-in this episode we discuss theories and find out if anyone is convicted.
Yasmine is determined that Jen WILL learn Greek mythology!  She brings the fascinating new research into an age old question:  Did Atlantis ever exist?

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Transcript

 Hello Mavens. Welcome to Mavens of Ms. Deeds, the podcast about folklore, the paranormal and historical true crime. I'm Jen and joined by my equally spooky cohost Yasmine hello.  The long awaited part three , the Sarah Ware murder case is here and I, with lots of editing and realizing that I can't possibly make this into the 22 parts that might require, I have paired things down  that we can have a mewhat of a conclusion as much as there is  to this case, unfortunately.

This is your reminder that if you haven't, if you don't remember from last week or if you are brand new here, this is not the time to the, the one to start on . You can go back a couple episodes and start to hear this from the beginning. But just to somewhat recap, we left it. Where did we leave it exactly?

Oh my goodness. Were we in court yet? I think we had been arrested. . Yes. And I did actually find me videos and got to hear Williams last name that I can't stand pronounced. I heard it, I did hear it. Literally though this is, it's a Psych reference, but it actually true this time. I did hear it both ways.

Oh my gosh. You were gonna say that ,  it's either Treyworgy yes. .  I'm probably for consistency's sake and whatever probably gonna, is gonna stick with William at this point. But I did want to acknowledge that there were two New England Ghost hunting groups that, , had done videos.

And those are the, the two ways that I, I heard the last name from, from two different people. , , and they might be totally wrong. I don't know. , neither here nor there. Anyway, William had been arrested and we learned about the bombshell witness Joseph Fogg Jr. He was the n of the, the folks his parents owned the Fogg store where Sarah had made her purchase, mm-hmm.

and gone on her way. And we al, I let  that her purse had been found hidden at her home with Mrs. Miles behind a commode, which was a bit strange that they had found her rain. With her body, which was weird because the weather did not call for that. And everyone, people, , the multitude of people we've talked about that were up and Adam that night and saw her at various points along her journey, definitely did not recall her having that.

 How in the world, , did all that happen, right?  That's where we left it. And  essentially townspeople are really 50 50 rt of split about the guilt of William and they're al split about Joseph Fogg's testimony as well.  We saw, and al for people just to remember that we're.

Definitely need to, to check the books out by Emeric Spooner. Sarah Ware Revisited is particularly the one that his follow up to his original book about Sarah Ware that I'm drawing heavily from to me things up here tonight. But  he uses a lot of the original newspapers from not just Bucksport, but in the surrounding areas.

 Ellsworth was a big one. And Lewiston was another one that I think I've got referenced in here a couple of times coming up. But it was interesting because,  William is, he was rt of a, a native n to Ellsworth, and  the papers there are, you start to realize, have been really playing up his innocence, , .

They are very skewed towards,  they're the ones that rt of put forth that idea that Joseph Fogg was in me way intellectually disabled. And, , that's why you really can't put much stock in his testimony saying that, , his confession that he helped William to dispose of or move at the very least Sarah's body, right?

 That's, you, you start to kind of see that.   People are, are rt of 50 50 on this his guilt and whether or not Joseph's telling the truth and people were very much right to, to wonder about that because just five days after he lays this bombshell at the, the trial, he rec. Right. And he is arrested for perjury, , and pleads guilty saying basically, Nope, I made all that up about helping William to move that, the body that night.

He says that two members of the Citizens Committee,  remember the Citizens Committee was what the townspeople had rt of pulled together to hunt for the killer after those Right. For hire detectives, , weren't having any luck and, and what, and basically their own police, , force had seemingly given up on it, on lving the murder, right?

 He says two members of the citizens committee and one of the for hire detectives threatened and bribe him to tell the story. They were the ones that had fed him details of the crime and the location  that his,  his original confession could be believable. And this was really the only evidence in this case.

 William is released. Wow. . And I should say it cuz I've been rt of, yeah, I've been rt of calling this a trial, but this was basically to a, a trial to like, for the grand jury to get an indictment on William.  It's not a trial trial as in he's already been indicted and all that.  That's why it was  easy at that point for him to now just be released and, , then Joseph takes his place at the Ellsworth jail.

Yeah. . . Now me things start to become a little weird though.  Foggs, Joseph's parents swear that he had told them prior to Sarah's body being found his everything that was in his original confession. . And yes, and faced. And he al, there was another family member, I think it was his grandfather don't super quote me on that, but I think it was his grandfather, which was like a Mr.

Mink. But anyway, he al said before the body was found that he had told him that too, and his wife.   Basically then Fogg faced with all of this Fogg then swears that his original statement was in fact true, but the sheriff and a selectman. .  A very prominent citizen of the town. Mm-hmm.  scared him into saying that he had lied  and you're just like, Just wait, what doing?

Yeah. Yeah, exactly.  It's becoming a just flaming hot mess.  Now we are up to, basically nothing happens for quite me time now because of this big, , conundrum, , that Joseph, it's gotten, , everybody into  we get all the way.  Remember it happened in 1898 to April 12th, 1902.

 We got me time now that has passed. And surprise, surprise, William is actually indicted for Sarah's murder. .  What changed? What happened? . Yeah, exactly.  An article from the Kennebec Journal that came out just prior to the indictment they had actually interviewed Joseph Fogg and found him to be quite the opposite of intellectually disabled or any such, , description that the, basically the Ellsworth paper had, would have everyone to have believed, , that, that didn't know Joseph.

If you had read just their account, you would think, well, yeah, he, , you can't trust,  him. And  they, they very much point out that he is, he is not,  unintelligent by any stretch of the imagination. He is illiterate, but again, like we talked back in, I think maybe epide one, who care.

it's a, a, , a time when that was not gonna be mething that, , everybody was, that was not taken for granted. Like maybe it is today, not by long shot and certainly would have no bearing on his intelligence regardless.  Anyway, that was the only part that was true about the, from the Ellsworth article as it related to his character.

 Let's see.  Williams trial begins his trial trial now July 15th, 1902, and the first few witnesses describe seeing Fogg get into a jigger with William the day of Sarah's disappearance.  What we are figuring out is during this time, basically they still. Investigators, they, they still believe that William is their guy.

And they have continued to, , interview people and, , and gather this evidence that, , possibly Joseph was his original version really was the truth. . And what we certainly know, even today, how many people are being freed from coerced confessions when mm-hmm. , they were, , minors or, , or whatever.

This is mething that still happens today, , it's a phenomen Yeah. That, , can, Yeah. Can really happen.   We, they, they're presenting no more than one witness saying that they, they did see this, see the two of them together that day. And during the trial, Sarah's daughter Mildred reveals that she's the one that actually found her mother's purse under the commode, which I thought was interesting cause I hadn't seen that.

And she found that three days after Sarah's body was found, when she's in town and yeah. Mm-hmm. , many witnesses stated they had heard, they had had odd conversations with William since the murder. We talked about a couple of those. I y'all to forgive me, I think in the first epide where he would , said mething to the effect of basically alluding she was dead.

When people were barely just figuring out that she was even missing. Right. Al, . Yeah. And he would basically, , want to bring it up to anybody and theorize with anyone and everyone that he came in contact with, , in town.  He was known to, , to really want to, to talk about it.

And he was al very vocal about, , how innocent he was and how open he was to having his property searched multiple times, and, , all of those things, , that he was just this great guy. And , yeah.  Now today with, , our psychology, we might think why are you inserting yourself  much?

And, , wanting to talk  much about this. Yeah. But, , who knows? He could have just been like the, , armchair detective, like the og, , armchair detective of the day. I, , I don't know.   Let's see.  July 25th, 1902. William is acquitted of this murder. What? And you may say, Why

Yeah. And the first thing that I thought of was, what the heck happened to the bloody hammer with his initials on it and the canvas that they found right in that jigger? What happened to it? Why is nobody talking about this? Oh, I'm  glad you asked. They lost it. Excuse me. Yeah, they lost it. Yep. Oh my gosh.

 The interesting thing too is that it's described as cause I think you had asked, and  I did actually find a description of it. It was a medium size claw hammer with a round face and a short handle. , yeah, . Yeah, both were lost since the first trial. First trial. And al another issue that the prosecution would've had was many witnesses from that had testified the coroner's inquest had died, including the actual coroner that first examined the body.

No, And you al have along with that, you've got Joseph's flip flopping on, , that whole deal and yeah.  Just very, very interesting.  At this point, it's starting to become a little difficult to believe that this many things could happen. , the loss of this evidence, , the, the people just, it's just too much, ?

It's too much. Yeah. And,  I really, and like I said, I didn't get you just, you really should check out his book. It's, it's on Amazon, you can get it via Kindle or , just the, the regular way or regular way as the actual book. I don't know what that even means. Anyway  because the, the newspapers are fascinating and he has them published, , the full articles , that detail me of this stuff.

And it's, it's really very interesting. But what I wanted to to focus a little more on was just the theories.  These are me theories that were around at the time that people genuinely, , believed could be. And then rt. The, I've rt of sprinkled in what the author Emery Spooner, his thoughts on me of those are because he had me, me really good insights and if you'll remember, he was able to actually interview a few people that were likely children at the time, right.

Of this that were, he, ,  they, they knew bits and pieces of things that had trickled down. And he says in this second book that I'm using the most of that there were quite a few that he was able to interview. That's for, they knew exactly who had done it, but they were never going to say because they still have family alive and in, in and around Bucksport.

 Just very interesting.  We will go to the major theories, and the first one is that William. Was involved, possibly not the killer, but definitely knew who was responsible. Many newspapers depicted him as a saint of the community, basically willing to help his neighbors at the drop of a hat. But around town more locally, he was more known to have a short fuse.

And we remember he was confirmed to have had a, , quote unquote heated discussion about money with Sarah just prior to her murder. And it's generally accepted that he owed her money, ? Right. Most people pretty much believed that, and al mewhat suspected of making advances towards her.

Which led to, , maybe her leaving. Just another thing to kind of keep in mind, cuz , he may have, he may have liked the ladies. . , yeah, an interesting side note that the the author found  while researching is that,  remember, the trial has just ended in 1902. In on September 29th, 1905, there's several articles where William was charged with cruelty to animals and was convicted regarding a horse that was malnourished.

Now, interestingly, during his 1902, his trial, a witness had admitted to not liking him, William, because he had seen him beating a horse on more than one occasion. Oh my goodness.   To the case in 19. Oh. His neighbors complained  much for over the span of two to three years about his neglect and treatment of this horse feeding it and then just not feeding it.

That he was actually given 30 days in jail for back then for that. Yeah. Wow. Then I was like, You wouldn't even get that now. But I mean, , court courses were extremely important. Were treated,  as very, very valuable property and all those things because of but yeah,  he was actually given 30 days in, in jail for that.

 Again, , people would point to that as his character and backing up the part about, , short fuse and maybe not as saintly as, , he would have people believe right now. Next thing is Mrs. Miles had to have known Sarah was dead, and that's why she didn't look for her and didn't raise the alarm for  long.

Hmm. And the al thing with Yeah. Is that, who did she, who is the one pern that she mentioned it to and asked to go check William ? Right, Right. She asked him to go to John Bullock's house where she last, , had, had known Sarah to go, she was going out that night to, to go visit him for a little bit.

 That's who she chooses to ask to go, , to go out. , My dog's going crazy. I don't know if everybody can hear that or not. But anyway evidently squirrel activity happening, , cause my little terrier is on it. .  The other thing with that could be though, to, , on the opposite side of that, if you're not wearing your tenfold hat, is that, , they were friendly, his daughters and he came over on Sundays, remember for dinner and stuff, , Right.

He couldn't, it may not be that weird that William would be the one, ,  just to play devil's advocate there, I suppose.  She repeatedly though, claimed that she was worried and in the trial transcript. She, and when she was interviewed by me of these newspapers, she is just torn to pieces talking about, , how worried she was and how she knew that there was mething wrong and she couldn't sleep that night cuz she knew Sarah should be back

 What gives, , you, you can't be super worried and you can't sleep. But then you al start going around and saying, Well, I just thought that she had, , decided to stay at John Bullock's house for a week or more. And, and then say, Well that one time she did go away for two weeks , on a trip.

And it's like, they don't jive, , it's like lately needed to stick with one or the other because mething's wrong. Right.  Then we have that. Joseph Fogg was definitely telling the truth the first time because too many witnesses saw him and William together along with hearing the unds of a jigger traveling fast that night.

,

Oh, and the witnesses hearing his story prior to Sarah's body even being found. And the interesting part with that is most of those witnesses were his own family,  Right. It's hard to dispute mething like that. Yeah. , what would they have to gain by being like, Yes, my idiot n helped move a body.

Like,  what,  Yeah. That's not exactly mething you're gonna be, , proud of. I don't think . I think that's a little interesting. . Now this is a, this is a good one, the card game theory.  The author states that card games have been proven that they did happen in Bucksport on Saturday nights.

And it did happen that Saturday, the night of the murder, Sarah was owed money by a few men of the town for her housekeeping services and or nanny services. And she may have learned of the game and me of the people that were gonna be there and went to collect. .  She could have witnessed a man being killed or stepped in to prevent a beating slash killing and was either inadvertently killed.

He.  or she was killed on purpose because she was a witness and many prominent citizens were at these card games, which I gather would not have been when they had to explain like, to give alibis for themselves about this card game, they were quite embarrassed to do .  I gather this was not a, a thing in ciety that you wanted to be known for was your poker prowess.

I suppose I, yeah.  Yeah.  Sarah,  the theory with this is that then Sarah was taken back to Mrs. Miles home while dying, or already dead and William was present. At the game or brought into the scheme to cover up the crime for a decent amount of money. But when, . William arrives with her, Yeah, with her dead and or dying to Mrs.

Miles. Mrs. Miles would probably have been pretty hysterical and screamed or made me rt of noise. Now this is interesting because three separate female witnesses claim to have heard screams coming from the miles house that night. What? . Yes, .  Then if you continue on this path, Mrs. Miles likely refused to allow Sarah's dead body to be brought into the.

And that's why William placed her body nearby on Miles Lane. And then it gets really little dicey here, but  the author speculates that as the body decomposed, Mrs. Miles may have been unnerved by the smell and threatened to talk.  William then engages Joseph to help him move the body on down the lane.

Interesting. Because that was kind of one of my things. I was like, Well, why did they only move it? Like, , why move it at all? ? Right.  It, , it's a theory. It's a theory. This al though, this whole thing, this whole card game thing would explain Sarah's purse back at the house.

And her raincoat being found with her. . Because, because those items would imply that either Sarah came back to the house at me point before going out again and Mrs. Miles, who was  anxious and waiting up for her, missed all of that Uhhuh . And then even then the weather still didn't call for her to get her her heavy rain coat anyway,  that would be weird.

Right.  This is another way to explain how her belong. Me of her belongings got to the house and belongings she didn't have originally are now with her body. Right. Let's see. No matter what, like I said, William seemed to talk about the case with anyone, made odd statements provide like his own theories, which metimes were very detailed.

Like very oddly detailed. We'll just say that, , and at times he named names of people that could have been involved in the murder. , goodness, These, , these were metimes like the children of, , very prominent citizens. And  the theory is that he possibly could have done that because the heat is  much on him that he pretty much knows at me point he's gonna be arrested during, , when all this stuff started happening, , in 1898.

 The theory is he starts name dropping a little bit to be like, Hey, you better help me out here. Or it's all gonna go down. Mm-hmm.  to get more money to get things to happen. Like say, I don't know, a hammer in a canvas to walk out, , evidence. Right. Things like that. , and then of course the threatening of Joseph Fogg to recant his original confession.

That would al be a helpful favor.

That is a helicopter. Rry. I was like, Listen, that unded  strange that I was like, Yes, it's gone now To me, . . I didn't think it'd be  loud. Rry. . No, that's fine. I was just like, I couldn't tell if it was like on my end or yours, and I was like, I being invaded.   The last little tidbits here.

 There's the author points out that there's an interesting thing, and I hadn't really thought about it, but he is right. When you start looking in at old newspapers and, and things like that, that there's a lot of people that they use the term found dead , and a lot of times it can be under me, me very interesting slash concerning circumstances, ?

Mm-hmm.  that were just never investigated. People are like, Oh, well yeah, people just go in the woods and disappear. That happens all the time. That kind of thing.  In Bucksport there were, there were quite a few found Deads. And me that they even knew were murdered and they just didn't do anything.

 The author reference is a November 22nd Yeah. 1898 article that was in the Lewiston Evening Journal.  They say the Lewiston mentions that there have been six murders committed in Bugs Port in recent memory, and only one of those murders has been relved. And  the Bugs Port Paper takes great offense to this and basically writes, , their own article in rebuttal and it's very sad.

 I'll tell you the murders that the Lewiston is referencing and that was and this is a first name I have never heard before. Xlo, Xeloda, Z E L O T E s, Crocker, The Trim family, which was three murdered at the Trim family. Dr. McClellan, of course, Sarah, we, and  basically the bugs Port paper comes back and says, Well, you shouldn't say it's six murders, cuz technically the trim family that just counts as one, even though there were three people.

 We really only have like, , three murders, not six . It's like, what are you talking about? Like, that's your concern.  .  Yeah.  That's kind of a interesting little aside.  Then me of the ones that were a little bit older, there was Justine Carr and that murderer was convicted. They had a well known pedler in the area that disappeared without a trace.

Was thought to have been robbed, but they could never find the body. Fred Clement was found at the bottom of stairs with a bullet wound. They immediately ruled that as suicide. Leonard Perkins had strangulation marks on his neck, but they didn't investigate that Mr. Keith was thought to have been poined by his wife, but they didn't look into that.

Dr. McClellan was found dead in a doorway. There was a man arrested, but he was acquitted. And lastly, and very much most relevant to Sarah, where, and her case was a hear Woodbridge, he was beaten to death and found approximately a week after Sarah went missing, and I'll stay with me, but, and before she was found.

 Remember she was missing two weeks, but nobody really was looking for until after the first week.  Basically he is found in that in between time.  that we now know she was murdered, but before her body was found.  Why is he important?  He duh duh oh, newspaper reports that he died from a quote, paralytic shock received on Saturday night.

 The Saturday prior mm-hmm. . Which is interesting cuz Yeah. Saturday the author reports that paralytic shock is evidently a diagnosis given when doctors had literally no idea what in the world had happened to you.  It was paralytic shock . He had actually here in Woodbridge had survived an attempt on his life just the year before when his wife struck him in the head with an ax because he refused to eat the dinner she had made for.

 This guy had no luck whatever. That was just a little aside that I had to mention though. . Geez, Louis he now Haram had been a key witness in the trim, family murder trial.  This guy really, I'm not sure.  The question, Yeah.  The question is, is, is could he be the link to the whole card game theory?

. Maybe because of the timing and Yeah. That he's found beaten and, , dead. Could that have been the catalyst that Sarah either inadvertently witnessed mm-hmm.  while she was out that night? Or did she see him being beaten, tried to intervene and inadvertently was struck and then either finished off or, , was left to die, whatever.

Right?  That's why he's interesting to this whole, this whole thing. Because there are reports

this, one of the reans that he, many of the prominent citizens who were at this this card game were questioned and were very reluctant until they basically had to clear their names. Cuz you remember there were  many suspects early on because  many of these men owed her money of, , for work that she had done.

And they were just, , too lazy to pay even though they had the money. . Yeah.  They finally had to just be embarrassed but to clear their name of murder, admit that this card game happens and they were there. And  now you've got this guy that they now know got into a fight, but they're, they're downplaying this fight.

But they're kind of, The doctor though is kind of admitting by saying from that he dies ultimately from a paralytic shock,  from Saturday night. That's a little, a little suspect. Yeah. Yeah, for sure.





 Last thing is Sarah is said to haunt the banks of the manmade Silver Lake. Silver Lake is where she had been buried Sand's head, but in the 1930s the cemetery was moved and the bodies buried.

There were disinterred in order to create the lake. And rumors, of course swirl that not all the bodies were actually removed. Just the headstones. Don't know if that's from laziness or just poor markings on me of them. You gotta figure. Yeah. But they were taken to present day Oak Hill Cemetery.  Al in the thirties Ellsworth Courthouse caught fire.

And that's where evidence. Had been kept for, from the trial, even though nothing ever happened after William was acquitted. No, no one else, , came to trial. It was basically rt of looked at like they had their guy and he got away with it, basically. Wow. Or he was just never going to tell who he was covering up for.

 One of the two or a mixture of both.  The courthouse catches fire and they, but the box that contained her skull while miss placed apparently was not lost in the fire because it was found again by a file clerk in the 1980s in the court. But then still nothing. It just still stayed there.

And then me local citizens really kind of when they learned about this came together and petitioned. And  in 1998, her head was buried next to where hopefully her body is buried. A lot of people, Yeah, they really believe in the, the haunting people claim to see her on the banks of the Silver Lake.

They don't believe, a lot of people don't believe that she could possibly be buried where they say because what they did was they moved her to be buried with her ex-husband, her ex father-in-law, . And apparently it's like a really small space. Like it was only like three feet. White or mething like between wherever, , it's hard.

It was hard for me to picture. And all the pictures I could find didn't show their graves. It just showed a close up of her.  I, I couldn't really tell. Mm-hmm. . But basically they're saying simple math dictates that there's no possible way that, that she could, they could have fit her to be buried there because her fa ex father-in-law and her ex-husband had already died before, , one of them before she died.

  It didn't make a whole lot of sense. And yeah.  For real. Exactly.  That is rt of the, the gist of that. And like I said,  it, it technically remains unlved, but most people, a lot of people would say that it, it was lved and William Tray wary got away with it and, Many other prominent citizens in town al got away with a great cover up.

Wow. That was a story, My goodness, I cannot believe ,  many accounts,  many witnesses,  much evidence. And he's still, Yeah. But then that other idea of like covering for this other thing, man, you never know. That's  sad. And it was just interesting that for, , even though it would've been, , a thriving definite seaport, , during this time, but still that was a, that's a lot of murders  in un

Yeah, it is. That, , happened. And  it, it does kind of make you wonder what was going on what was going on. Yeah. Safe. It was not safe. It was safe for goodness. Especially if you're Williams, right? Geez.  Yes, that was aweme. Yay. . Yay. That, yeah, that, because that became a bit of an obsession.

I can see how the author got obsessed with it. And like I said, , I can't say it enough. I highly recommend those, those books. Or just doing your own research like Library of Congress, like read through the papers. But it's much easier to buy his books cuz he literally has everything just boom right there.

And it's a ritual glory because, , there are  many names and there were  many witnesses and things, just these little. Strange events, , that that popped up and what people knew Yeah. And who changed their story and why did they change their story, ? Right. And when they knew, like the timeline of who knew what when.

That's just incredible. Yeah, exactly. Just  many people,  many moving parts in the story story. Yeah.  I obviously could not, , go into to all of those things, but it is fascinating. Like I said in his books, he does have each pern's actual testimony which is one of the cool things when you read these historical newspapers, that's what they would do.

I mean, they would print, , their news guy would just like, bam, ,  we're almost word for word, , what each witness said. And  you can actually read that in the book. And it's just a, a really cool thing. And it's it's al just cool to hear the, the language of, , get kind of that flavor of.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. All the time.  Is,  anyway. Yay. Yay. All right. What do you have for us? , Well in, ,  I think I'm gonna start with the story first before I say exactly what this is. And me people that are familiar with Greek mythology will know as on as I say the names that are, that are involved.

. That near the end of the story, we kind of get the whole picture.  I'm not gonna start with my credits yet. We could do that at the end. I'm just gonna tell a story and then we can, we can talk more about it after. , this is a story of Playto and Poseidon. Poseidon. Obviously we know he was the God of the sea in Greek mythology.

The god's. They loved to be involved with people.  That was one thing about the gods when they were kind of over messing around with each other and  playing tricks and trying to get over on one another they would interact with people.  One of his favorite things was to like oversee coastal cities, obviously, , close to the ocean but al find new developments of people like on islands and things like that.

 This is like a hobby for him. I guess the way that it was described, like besides hobby, was finding people near the ocean .  He traveled the whole world and he came across a prosperous island. Now what made this island prosperous? It had plenty of food that people were. Very cooperative with each other.

 They worked together to make to make the most of their plentiful island.  The people lived there were beautiful and smart, the most beautiful and the most smart people he had come across. And  he decided to stay with them for a while. I would too. Yeah. Right. They seem nice. . They, it unds ideal, me might say.

 There he met a young girl that he thought was the most beautiful he had ever seen, and her parents allowed her to marry beside when she turned 14.  Mature as Right. , I see that. And I'm just like, my oldest child is 13. I cannot even imagine. I can't even, like, I'm not, No. And I mean, , I guess then they were halfway to dead, , , Right?

I guess if I was only gonna live a few more years, I, I don't know. Again, had to grow up fast. Yeah. Really.  Poseidon did love Clay to, but since he did not want to stop roaming the world, he built her home on top of the tallest hill.  They call it a mound or a hill surrounded by moats and walls in the vast, vast con concentric circles.

 This is just house on a hill, and it was protected by moats and walls. And it had tunnel systems that went through the moats that connected to the ocean.  And apparently it was in the center of the island.  You have this prosperous, vast island and then this like temple moat thing where clay to lived.

.  Poseidon and clay to had five sets of twin boys together. No, thank you. That's yeah. A lot of kids. Yeah. Yeah.  Poseidon's, oversight of the island helped the already thriving people flourish.  Nice of him, , the people were well fed and were able to spend their time improving the world around them by building cities and developing technology.

 They were supposed to be like the most technologically advanced civilization, I guess you could say, of their time. .  Once beside and sentence came of age, he charged them with ruling the now prosperous island. Atlas, his oldest was to rule, like, kind of oversee everything, kind of like what Poseidon was doing, but they divided the island into technically 10 kingdoms and all of his brothers were able to rule their own kingdom.

Do you want me to read their names? I'm gonna try because I practiced. Oh yeah, but you gotta do their, Oh,  Atlas was the oldest, his twin. For me rean I kept finding two names, and this could be just different translations. But his twin was GREs or Emma Loss. .  That was, And then came Eres and Yuon.

Minuses and Oto. Cronos. Mm-hmm. , L Sippa And Me store.  and aez and D preps. That's probably not how you say that one. That's, but that's t. Remember you have to say fast.  That just fast and with, , authorit that way. Right. Get their sick. That's right. I don't do it either. , That's William Trey wor.

Well, all right.  Those guys were in charge. They ruled a kingdom. They all rolled a kingdom of Atlantis. The 10 kingdoms prospered. They were doing a great job. The more they had though, unfortunately, the more they wanted the age old moral dilemma is greed, unfortunately.  Yeah, me things never change.

Yeah. . Yeah.  They developed armies, established trade, and people came from other cities to learn.  They were doing well for a while. Eventually, the armies that were established to protect began to conquer their thought, to have conquered parts of North Africa parts and parts of Europe, and the people of those surrounding area.

Then eventually the people of those areas banded together to battle, and they were defeated. . .  Even though they had been conquering and winning battles all over the place, those other guys got together. They were defeated one time, and Poseidon was disappointed and probably bored because that is what those guys would do.

They'd just be over it. Like it's a few generations past where like his wife's probably gone by now, , he's just kinda over this dumb island and he's like, Oh, well you guys are the losers. Anyway,  he caused a great sea storm and sank the entire island in the course of one day and night. .

That's a bit drastic, a little dramatic, right? Yes. That's , yeah. Here we go. Atlantis san taking with it the cultural and technological advances that it developed.  That is the story or the mythological table of where Atlantis comes from. Beside found it just in the , in the middle of the ocean doing well, and he's like, Came in there med with his mey fingers under water.

Yeah. And then sunk it cuz he was over it. . Thanks. Beside him.  Anyways  was Atlantis real, or just another cautionary tale for the rise and fall of Ariey Corrupt civilization? We've seen real civilizations rise and fall, Egypt, Rome, Greece I mean we've, we've seen it in history.  Was this just a way to get people to discuss those things that were happening?

The first written record of Atlantis is from Plato. He has thought to be the the author of the story, but he, in his day claimed that his knowledge came from meone who had been there.  He admits his knowledge of Atlantis was third or four people removed from the pern that was actually there. .  In 360 bc Plato wrote Tamais, which is in which introduced Atlantis. Plato described the island as larger than Libya and Asia Minor. .  , Whoa, huge. Right? , I remember that. Yeah. Just huge. Yeah. In the middle of the Atlantic .  I just don't know like how people wouldn't have written about a place like that already.

It couldn't have been that far from Europe or. Listen, geography skills are terrible, but it couldn't, that being that big, it couldn't have been that far. Well, that's what I think. Yeah, that changes a lot about what, And obviously I'm not done, , any rt of deep, deep study into Atlantas, but I don't know why, but in my head I just assumed it was like a lot of islands just not very big.

I don't know what I imagined the size of it to be, but definitely, definitely not that big.  My thought had been, well, yeah, it would be easy to miss because travel by sea, , long distances out into the middle of the ocean, maybe still right by it. Never know. Not a thing. Yeah, exactly. Right. But now I'm like, ah, that's, that's a whole other thing.

. When it's that. , There. . I do get into me other stuff later. I, I nerded out a little bit. When I found this article, but we'll, we'll, we'll circle back.  I said obviously it's a huge island just because, just beyond the pillars of Hercules. I don't know if you've heard about this, but it's a, it's called the straight of Gibraltar.

Yes. And there it's this mountain type thing that looks like part of it was chopped off and it does look like pillars in the side of the mountain.  I'm gonna have to post pictures of this thing, cuz it, it is an incredible thing to look at that and think that nature created this, this right. Weird thing in the middle of the ocean.

   It's thought to be there, which is already kind of an area that, that has me legend tied to it. He spoke of an advanced ideal culture and the Great King Atlantis play Dough says the urce of his Atlantis story was his grandfather who learned the story from an Athenian statesman.  Like me Athenian high ranking type official government guy who was told the story of Atlantis by an Egyptian priest, which the Atlantians supposedly did trade with the Egyptians.

They went and learned from the Egyptians. The Egyptians came and learned from them. They took things back and forth. That was part of the, that would be a powerhouse learning from Egyptians . And if these were as equally intellectually equals with the Egyptians and shared their own. That's interesting.

It could have, it could really amazing back and forth with the technology and things like that. Yeah. , but the atlantians, they were conquering and they were pushing into Africa too.  The, the Egyptians could have been part of that force that defeated them and pushed them back, which I think they probably were.

I mean, if, if Oh wow. Blue is true, they probably were . That would not be surprising. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.  It's not known if Plato truly believed the story he wrote, or even if the people he says told him the story the way they did.  He kind of, he wrote this story, right, That was supposed to be like historical.

Mm-hmm. . Later on when he talks about the story, he does use a lot of philophy.  He does start to use Atlanta Atlantis, not Atlanta

He does. Oh my goodness. .  He does start to use Atlantis as like, like I said earlier, a cautionary tale.  He has people talking about how ciety should be run, how we should do things, how we should treat each other, ?  It could have been this story, a catalyst for the conversation of like democracy and ending slavery and things.

Things like that. Like just to,  more like a parable rt of thing? Right, right. . , He taught the benefits of the ideal culture, the danger of leading to corrupt any moral culture. To this day, the only written record in antiquity are the works of Plato and Atlantis has still never been indisputably identified.

 Because it was  long ago, and there is discussion of , I was watching me YouTube video that got real technical with the languages and stuff like that, that it could have it's thought to be 2000 years before. Wait, no three, 250 years before is where the story came to Plato.  Plato got it. Almost a 300 year old story.

Oh geez. . . Already, but there.  a letter or a number symbol that could have made it more like 9,000 years. Oh. Or yeah, much longer ago.  Ridiculous than, Yeah. Just because of me slight what is it? Like typo, basically. , but we don't know. We know nothing. We're learning very quickly. . Yeah, .  Obviously the island would've been mewhere in the Atlantic Ocean.

Explorers believe the island have been in the Mediterranean off the coast of Spain, or even under Antarctica. People have been all over the place looking for it.  Yeah, I have seen, , a couple. , documentaries that where they were diving, , at these different places and they were, , taking samples of, , this rock and stuff and they were talking about right now look, this, you can tell, this could have been like a pillar to, and I'm looking at it and I'm like, it's a rock.

Yeah. , say what you see, I wanna see what, when the wind hits the rock for a long, long time I wanna see this. But I don't even with you describing what you're seeing, I don't see it. Yeah. I'm , , but yeah. Yeah.  Think they were in the Caribbean. I'm pretty sure that's where this dive team was.

Cuz I thought there. Yeah, there's talk of it being like in the Caribbean, like you said, or even mewhere that had been on land. Wait, no, that is now land, but before was Ocean.  Like places in uth, uth America. Just anywhere, anywhere.  as we found it. I mean, I don't know. But I think that if if it was in between Spain and Morocco, because that's what kept coming back that's the most, like people would say Spain and Morocco first, and then they would say possibly other 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 things.

I think that if that was the case, the island would've been much smaller than Plato thought, obviously. Mm-hmm. . And maybe over the years, The story was kind of exaggerated, and then when he finally described it could have exaggerated a little bit himself. Right. ? Yeah.  .  We're to the article that I nerded out about.

I got very excited when I found this article. It's an NBC news article from 2019.  I was like, Ooh. A current mething. Yes. Wow. An author named Corey s Powell, it's called Real Life Atlantis Lost Continent Found Under Europe is revealing Earth's missing. The longest article of my life, , that that is the title though.

It just kept going. It's . All of that, all of those things. , it was, it was a long article and very well written and very descriptive. I did not obviously wanna write anything like word for word or re, , but I kind of summed it up in my own way.  This article discu discussed how geologist, and let's remember his name, do Van Berg of Ear Trek University.

He's found evidence of a former continent about the size of Greenland that has been basically pushed into and underneath Europe. Oh.  We, I mean, most of us kind of know what tectonic plates do. They shift when there's earthquakes and things like that. And bodies of land can separate or come together and smash into each other.

The tectonic plates shift under, that's where we get mountains from.  He's talking about this shifting happening and not being sure if it was a volcano or if it could have been an earthquake or several earthquakes or millions of years of earthquakes. Right. Because it , he says the actual finishing of the one body of land going underneath and into the other body of land.

Happened about 140 million years ago. Holy cow. ,

, I don't know if this goes too, too far off topic, but this shifts in the Earth's surface. It's caused the land in the stone to affect the landscape. There's evidence of this event even now, it caused limestone to become marble in Croatia and Italy. And that marble was used by the Romans and the Greeks in their temples.

Oh.  I thought that was really cool. Part of it has become the, the Alps, ,  pretty famous little continent there. This former continent is being called Greater Ad. , which is a really pretty name for a loss continent . How this is not a new or even out of the ordinary occurrence on the earth.

It, the earth is a living being and is always changing and shifting.  Another loss continent is called Z Landia. That's too close to Zoolander. I'm just gonna say it.

I didn't even think about that. I didn't say it out loud earlier, but yeah. What's land me that, that is immediate anyway. Carry on. High quality film there anyways, right? Yeah. Yes.  previously thought of as a bump in the ocean floor. Right?  Mapping has shown that it is like a consistent continent. It's not broken up into anything.

It's like a consistent. I don't know what that means in geological terms, but, .  It encompasses all the islands of New Zealand. It's under New Zealand. Huh. And these islands that are now islands would've been tops of mountains. Oh, on this continent. Oh wow. . Yeah.  It's about two thirds the size of Australia, which is pretty big.

Yeah. And more than twice as large as what would be greater, Andrea.  I think either of these could have possibly been Atlantis if amazing. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, if it didn't happen millions of years ago, I definitely think they would be contenders. .  It was a part of a super continent called God wanna.

Then it got separated about 85 to a hundred million years ago. It got stretched out and thinned resulting in lower elevation. It was al affected by the development of the Pacific Ring of Fire, a zone of volcanic activity that rims the Pacific. Excuse me. Have . I don't think I've ever heard of that. . I, I, It's, I'm having like recollections, but like little flashes of mething.

Yeah. But yeah. Yeah. No, it's been way too long that it to have staying power . What,  like, excuse me, volcanoes room, the Pacific Ocean. What is happening . I'm just, it can't be as serious as it unds. And this is my thing is that you can say mething that unds  intense. You excited that because you're on the West Coast,  over here.

Like, Oh, it's fine. . Oh, another hurricane. No big deal. Oh my gosh, you guys, Yeah, as long as you don't mention it, he volcanoes on the coast. I'm gonna sit here and be like, It's fine. Don't worry.

specifically, a fire can't be as bad as it und. Excuse me. No, but just saying mething like that, and I'm sure it's not as crazy as I'm thinking it is. Maybe it is, but like I can see how Plato would've heard me information and like taken it at face value possibly and gone from there. And now we have this mythology that was maybe just a small island of really pretty people that.

Possibly. Yeah. Yeah.  Anyways last little bit. According to Rupert Sutherland of Victoria Uni, University Wellington, I did quote this guy, didn't I? Who did I quote? Oh, no, no. That whole thing was Rupert Sutherland.  This whole, it got separated, blah, blah, blah.  He's a, ,  one more guy, geophysicist.

Derek Hask discusses radio activity being the cause of the rise and fall of continents. Back when the earth was first , like, no thank you, back when the earth was first born, it had many more radioactive elements than we have.  We have a lot less than it did at the beginning. Hashtag put together what's called the Atlas of the Underworld, which I love the title because it kind of feels a little bit Greek mythology cuz you have Atlas in there, his, , the king and underworld and all that stuff.

But it's basically to document the shifts in the earth, crust and mantle. He's credited with developing a map and model of greater Andrea. It's a, it's a textbook of the earth and all the different continents that used to be either former continent. Wow. I know that is impressive. I'm just, Yeah. I mean, yeah, it's very impressive.

but you think Atlas of the underworld, again, dramatic language.

 The list of Atlantis and Media, I was like, Oh, like let me list a few movies or books that you can find me more stuff on. It is extensive and there have been, , there's  many books,  many movies. I went on Wikipedia and it's just ,  much. But I thought there was one thing that was super interesting.

In the 19 hundreds there was an overlap in the emergence of the genre of fiction. People were used to either being relayed, stories like factual, this is what happened, this is the news type thing. The bible or verse type stories, parables and things like that. Right? But in the 19 hundreds, the Victorian era is when you started to see What was it, 20, Is it 20,000 leagues Under the Sea?

Like people started to write these fictional stories based on legends they had heard or based on Right. Biblical characters, things like that, and Right. Exactly.  Me of these stories got kind of mixed in to what is fact and what is fiction. Ablutely. But I, I mean, I just love, I just love it.

It's  interesting. But yeah, I mean, the city, the law city of Atlantis there, like I said, there's  many stories,  many versions of what possibly where it could have gone. I mean, you could go and watch Ancient Aliens or mm-hmm.  I mean YouTube, just everything comes up.  My urces today, just really quick.

What is Atlantis Mystery Tales? I was on YouTube marine insight.com. HEA world.com, Myth encyclopedia.com, which is Oh, that's interesting. Turning into one of my frequently used . Yeah. thought.com, National geographic.com. Live science.com. Of course, Wikipedia, as always, and the great NBC News website.

Why do you think, why do you think we're all  obsessed with the thought of Atlantis?

There's a couple of reans I think that we are obsessed with that. I think that we all want to be a part of that utopian ciety. We'd all love to  or even, we all have ideas about how we could make things be better and, and live in harmony. And it unds  enticing to live in a place like that where everybody gets along, everybody's working together, right?

There's abundance in food  you can focus on other things. Mm-hmm. , but it, it's again, an age old story of getting greedy and, and getting shut down. I guess I, I, it's just, I don't know, people wanna prove maybe that it didn't happen that way or that there was me other rean. But I think, I think to me, it's mostly the kind of idolization of this ciety that was like an ideal utopia type.

That's, I think, and I just think it's  fascinating because it's just  to me it's not hard to believe or imagine that it, it could have existed. Right. , was it as aweme as all of that, , I don't know, but Right. Just the fact that it very well could have existed just because we know it would be  easy for , an island nation to be swept away basically, ?

Right. By a natural disaster of me of me kind, , like pay, , I was just gonna say that we've seen it in Palm Pay. Like we've, we, we have the pyramids that are left over from, , from the Egyptian culture. We have the pyramids in, in Mexico that are left over. Where did those people go?

What happened to those cieties? And I think Atlantis is, does stand with those. Kind of off to the side a little bit that like, hey, here was this other one that we haven't quite, we don't have all the information for, We don't have all the evidence for. Right. Because the ocean is washed it away.

Exactly. Yeah. And it's, the ocean is  vast and there's no way to, for people to even accidentally, , stumble upon an artifact or mething, like, it's not a, it's not gonna be, , a thing that could happen as easily as me of these other archeological fines, , that we have on land. .

Right. I think that's just part of it. I, I've just always kind of wondered, I think, , of all the things in this world, it's like, why are we obsessed with mething we don't even know exist? , this gets real for sure. But I, I mean, I am, I'm one of them. That is you. But I think that's part of the attraction too, is that you can kind of, I mean, you heard me pitting my own ideals on this, this thing that like, it could have been anything we don't know.

And that, I think that's al probably part of the, the fantasy of it. Ever a time when a place like that actually yeah. Existed. But I don't know. Yeah. Say island life, , . Yeah. Maybe it was maybe

No, that's aweme. That like, yeah, go online and watch a bunch of that stuff. Now I'll have to go down my Atlantis wormhole. I know it's, I've been having fun with it, like every week kind of learning a little bit more and more about me of these things that I have al already have interest in. But then really like the story of Clay to and Poseidon, I didn't know they had.

Ns. I didn't know they, , created a kingdom and things like that. I had no idea. I have to get that short. I'm telling you my Amazon order, I gotta get that chart. . Yeah. Yeah,

Aweme. All right guys. Well thank you ,  much for listening to us today. Please find us on the cials for more interaction on Twitter. We are mavens. We are at Mavens, Miss Deeds on Instagram, TikTok, and Facebook. You can find us at mavens of Miss Deeds or email us at mavens of miss deeds gmail.com.

Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a five star review. If you have a chance on iTunes, it'll help other listeners like you find. Ablutely. And remember we're still hoping meone will or me folks will let us know about me stories or ideas for spooky sean. We are now in the actual month of spooky sean.

Spooky sean.  We got to yeah, I've gotta start like really digging. You find a spooky story for next week. Yeah, I know. Yeah. But Alright, thanks guys. We'll see you next time. Bye.