Spiritualism: Seances, Trances, and Sherlock Holmes

In the 19th Century Spiritualism was all the rage with Mediums setting up shop or hitting the road all across America and Europe.  While some were likely genuine others were simply taking advantage of the grieving, though the lengths and tactics used to deceive were impressive.  The movement also had famous historical figures like Sir Arthur Conan Doyle backing research and conducting in serious studies of the most famous psychics.  Join us as we discuss this fascinating time in history.

Email us with comments, episode ideas, personal paranormal experiences:  mavensofmisdeeds@gmail.com

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Transcript

Hello, mavens Yasmine and I are back for our now third episode together, which is very exciting. And for those of you in the future that are gonna see this on video, I am in a hideous looking contraption here. This is my poor man's podcast studio  so we are doing that. And if you listen to the past two episodes with us our audio hasn't been the super best.

But we're hoping now with the fabulous help of Riverside, we are not sponsored by them. Please believe me on. That this will be a much better experience for us and for you listening. So but we appreciate your support while we figure out  the audio stuff. It is a little tricky when you're east coast, west coast and doing things remote.

So that being said, so Yasmine, what has happened to you? Good, bad, or otherwise this, 

Well, I had kind of an interesting experience today. It doesn't happen too often, but so my son and his friend are over, that happens all the time. They're here.  And then his best friend and, and his mom.

The mom of my son's best friend was coming over. She's also okay. My best friend  OK. Gotcha. She was gonna come over for a little bit with their, her younger son. And the boys were like, oh, we're gonna hide. And then pop out, like, or, you know, shoot him with Nerf guns or something like that. So I was like, cool.

Put some Nerf guns out for him so that he could shoot you guys back, you know, he's, he's six and then the other two are nine and 11. So, you know, he's like make a fear for him. Well, like 10 minutes go by 20 minutes. I don't hear the kids inside the house. I go to check on them outside and they're not outside.

Come back inside. They're not inside. Go back outside, walk down the street, yelling their name.  down the street, the panic level, starting to starting to rise. And I was like, shoot. Amy is on her way. Hi, Amy. . She was on her way.  and I was like, I have to call her and let her know that I lost the kids. Like I run back inside  and I'm like, you, I don't know where they are.

I've been in the house looking for them. I was in my rooms, but so I looked in all the other rooms, but now I'm seeing they were my closet. They moved some stuff around in there. I can tell. So maybe they snuck back in this way. When we were, when they heard us looking for them, we were this close to calling the police  that like, we could not find them.

And we CA so we live, there's like desert at the end of our block on one side, like the house is just end in its desert. So sometimes they go out there. We also back up to the school that my kids go to so they could jump the fence and they have before. So we're looking over the fence and she sees two boys on the slide, in the playground.

but they don't come. So she's like, what are we gonna do? I, we come back in the house and they're in my oldest child's bedroom hiding. The only reason we even saw them is cuz they were moving, hiding places. Oh my goodness. We were so like so mad. Like you heard us calling your name, yelling your name. You heard us.

Yeah. Oh yes. So that was fun. So, 

but I, I thought they were gonna like come out shooting you guys with Nerf Nerf 

guns, right?  they love to do that and it's, you know, normal around here, I guess.

that is scary though. Oh, 

so along with some wine, I'll probably have some more wine later.  there you go. Extra. Yeah.

You guys, you will deserve it for sure. Yeah. Whoa kids, man. Hey I had a, as far as I can remember a fairly boring week. But today I went to a local arts and craft festival, which I love, I love all these festivals. So, but at this one I took my dogs, which are usually really great. It's popping me from buying stuff because you know, so many people, you know, come up to you and you know, you just get so distracted and, and whatever.

Yeah. But I met this awesome gentleman and I bought like four of his books, so he's a local author. But he right about folklore, historical. True crime. 

Oh, no way. 

Yes. And some he's got just a few ghost stories. So I talked with him and of course his name's gone outta my head and I am like all DED into my, you know fear.

I don't even know what to call this. Or I would tell you, but the really exciting thing was he loves podcasts. So we're going back and forth on, oh my 

gosh. Like, 

oh my gosh, most notorious. I love. And I was like, you know, most, you know, kind of nerded out podcast, nerded out a little bit. Yeah. It was so fun.

But. So then he asked, he was like, you know, so I've like, you know, bought the books and stuff and he's like, Hey, maybe I could come on your podcast sometime. And that'd be fun talking about stories that I've collected, you know, from, from all these, you know, people over the years. And I was like, yes, you can.

So that was really exciting. And I, he's probably gonna be listening. She say he was gonna listen for our episode. He got, you know, took her name and everything. And I'm so sorry that I forgot to to get your name, but I definitely remember you and I've already started reading two of your books.  oh, wow.

Today. Yeah. So I'm definitely looking forward to that, but that was just super fun. You don't get to nerd out like that. A lot of times I'll say something to somebody like, oh, well, that's cool. I do a podcast, you know? And they're just like, yeah, kinda like I've heard of those, you know? 

Right. They're just like a 

conversation stopped.

Yeah. Oh crap. Oh, another lady that I met there, another author, she I bought this book too because, you know, I can't help myself. Yep.  and she actually, so this is bonkers. So the book is really it's really fixed. I'm really excited. But basically from the gist of it is that she had an aunt, I believe that made a.

And, and so this lady is, is older, so she, okay. I don't wanna, you know, at least in her late seventies. Okay. And so this quilt, she made this quilt for Nu it was her, sister-in-law all coming back to me now sister-in-law made this quilt for her. And basically it has got some paranormal, something that, the attached to it now 

that she made 

since the sister-in-law passed away.

Oh, okay. Her mother actually had the quilt forever. Even though. Yeah. And there were some things now her mom of course has passed and now she's had the quilt for years. Mm-hmm  she keeps it in a closet that she does not open the door does not take this quilt out of the closet, whatever. And of course she didn't tell me more cause I've got to read the book, but so I'm really excited about that.

I was like, yes. So, so anyway, that was cool stuff. That sort of caused me to do what I hate to do. Cause I already had notes for something really cool. And I won't say what it is cause now I'll do this for next week. Well, I will. But it made me pivot a little bit into, and this will definitely be something that will be what I'm gonna talk about will be something that I'll have to like, just continue on over other episodes because we could be here, you know, forever.

So spiritualism 

stop it. I did it too. Oh my gosh. We really do not moment here. Are you kidding me? 

That is insane. I can at least, oh my gosh. That is 

insane.  so maybe we just talk about it and talk about what we like found I'm sure I'm freak 

out if you did. So I, cause it's such a huge subject, you know, you can go so many, so I focus on Leonarda Piper.

Okay. I just kind of did like an overview, like what it was about and like some key figures in the movements and then like what, like, you know, like more detail oriented, like on the outside as a whole than like a certain person. That's good. 

Okay. That's good. So then we need to switch. It would be better for you to, 

okay.

That's fine.  oh, how fun? Listen of all the podcasts I listen to. I.  that most of 'em do like do stories, kind of like we do. And they always say like, oh, we're gonna do the same ones one day. I have never heard it. And then we go and do the same one.

that is hilarious of it. Okay. That is really funny. And of all things spiritualism anyways. Okay. Too hard.  I'm a believer it's done. We're done.  exactly. Yeah.  okay. So spiritualism was actually a religious movement, which I did not realize because I mean, it falls under the umbrella of a religion because there's like stated beliefs and disbeliefs, but then.

There's now church of there's churches of spiritualism, people that practice on like a larger scale, reaching out to the community, they, and things like that. So it, it began like all this, all this, like all kinds of different stuff was happening in the world that I believe brought it on. So there's the post inquisition.

People are starting to kind of think for themselves. People are able to read people are just kind of expanding their minds during this time. North America can colonization was happening soon after that, like pilgrims came over colonizations happening, the revolutionary wars going on. So like all these things are happening to kind of let people be able to open their minds to, to more than just what the Catholic church or the Protestant church was giving them.

So, and also there were starting to be like advances in technology. People are figuring out that we're, you know, the earth does rotate around the sun and you know, that you can harness the power of electricity and, you know, there, all these things that were, would've been heresy, you know, a few hundred years prior, they wouldn't have been allowed to study them or things like that.

So, and then which led to people can actually see it. Exactly. Yeah. People thinking about then what happens when you die? Because now there's other ways to think maybe like you don't just go straight to heaven and that's it, you know, so people were starting to wonder stuff anyways and inquire more.  One thing about spiritualism is it puts forward the idea that you, anyone can make direct communication with God and spirits and even angels.

So if you were connected enough, you could actually make that connection. But in general, people went to mediums. So mediums were people that were more connected to the spiritual world. They practiced regularly, they did rituals and they had their, each medium kind of had, has their own way of connecting to the spirit world.

So that kind of starts to happen. Also, you have smaller, I guess, movements going on, concurrently of people trying to connect with past their past loved ones. So one another thing about Spiritualism is there are no official canonical texts and at their peak, which their peak was between 1840 to 1920, they had about 8 million members, which is very interesting.

There aren't as many people there weren't as many people on the earth then as there is now and still 8 million. That's a lot of people. Yes. Yes. So it was very widespread all over the world, really. Okay. So that's like spiritualism umbrella kind of thing. Key influences. I have a couple of those Emmanuel, Sweden.

He lived in 1866 to 1772. So not necessarily during the movement of spiritualism, but what he claimed is that he was able to speak to spirits while he was awake. He described several Le levels of heaven and. So they, he believed and he put forward the belief that there were three heavens, three Hells, and then kind of a purgatory neutral Earthlike plane.

And those were the spirits that we can connect with the ones that were on the, the middle. 

So has that, that, that's very interesting because that's one thing that I've always sort of wondered, well, like 

my some and not all.  

exactly. Yeah. And then like sometimes, and then you just think, you know, why certain spirits, like, I always think of especially what they would call, I think they're called residual.

Yes. Haunting. Yes. Like where they're basically just going about their day. Right. They don't seem to, and we see a lot of that. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. And I'm thinking to me in my head, my first thought is, oh, I have to work. I'm like, you know what I mean? Like I'm still have like reliving. So that is 

just so interesting doing the same thing you've always done.

Yeah. That is so interesting to, I've almost 

been, you know, Uhhuh like, well, and I 

think, I don't know over  I, and I would, this is a thing that I was thinking about later too, cuz we all have the idea of like a seance in our head. Right. Kind of, I mean, right. But where did we get that idea from? Like. This is what I was thinking about earlier anyways, but what comes through sometimes they speak to the person or the, they speak through the person.

And sometimes it's good news. Sometimes it's telling the future, but other times you get like unhappy spirits coming in, the ones that are banging the ones that are throwing things. So like, why are they coming through in that way? And not, it's not always the same way, like, right. So this is what people started to wonder and people started to explore.

Okay. So yeah, we were free of the intermediary, you know, priests, no rituals, even though it could be said that like, there were like a certain medium would have their own individual rituals. It wasn't there weren't rituals as a whole. Right. Okay. Then Fran Mesmer, he lived from 1734 to 1815, and I was really surprised at how old both of these dudes lived to even back.

Both of them like 80 something years. Yes. Crazy. So he invented and I put quotations because it was more of a practiced, like he was trying, he invented hypnotism. So he invented the idea of hypnotism. Okay. He theorized that once at a trans state, anyone could speak to the spirits so you can talk to them and they would talk back through you.

And he used speaking like automatic speaking and automatic writing, and it's worthy idea. MES mesmerize comes from, so what he, what his movement was called was mesmerism. And that was kind of a practice in mesmerizing people and learning how to put people in a trance, which is.  out of just outta control.

I just, so yeah, spiritualists in the 1940s and on it really, even up till now, which is interesting. I talked about that later, but even up till now have these core two gentlemen theories at their base, everyone can connect to spirit. You can speak to it, several levels of heaven and hell and the trans like type thing.

Those are still help believes, which is very interesting, cuz they're very old. 

So, so I'm curious, did you come because I definitely dunno the answer to this. Did you come across anything that talks about like who.  and what qualifies the spirits to either go to a level of heaven or a level of hell?

I don't think  cause in everything I read, I didn't, I never, yeah. Like what qualifies 

the person to go to the next level? Yeah. No, I don't know. But where is, and I 

guess, are they based that off of people, like spirits telling them, I guess that that's where they are. Yeah, 

I suppose. Yeah. Well, where did the idea of like unfinished business come from?

I'd like to know, I mean, exactly like where it's almost like a 

theory that it, it's almost like it's one of those things that I feel like when somebody, cuz you have the question you're like. Why, you know, are some spirits still here? Why can I communicate with, you know, with Memaw, but Papa never, you know, came through or whatever.

And so I think it just became, you know, somebody explains it. They're like, well, you know, souls that we can still communicate with, have unfinished business. And you're like, oh, you know, I mean, to me, like if I try to think deeper about it, I'm like, I don't have a better explanation. Exactly. So I'm like, I guess, you know, it could be that, 

I mean, what other explanation is there, but then at the same time, like maybe something in their life that we don't always know about.

I don't know. Yeah. Maybe if, if they want to come and talk to people too, cuz do they have a choice? I don't know how that. 

See, that's what I wonder exactly is yeah. Who's allowed to, and, or, or like you said, or is there still free will. Right. And they're just like, no, I'm on like the third level of heaven.

I'm good. Do you, you're on your can't bothered. 

Yeah, no, seriously. Oh, that's really interesting. You know, do you think it goes like, so like zero and then 1, 2, 3. 

Well, see, that's what I'm wondering. And, 

or is it like, and then 3, 2, 1, 3, 2, 1. 

Oh, I dunno. 

Exactly. Yeah. I don't, I dunno. That's interesting.

Right. We'd have to think about that some more. I, because I did not research that, like how, like were. How was it determined where the person goes 

well, exa I mean, I've not even, you know, I didn't even run across the level, so I'm like, my mind is like, so blown right now. So I'm sorry anymore. I'll pop up on that.

I just thought, well, I was thinking of it. I was like, oh, she happened to see. Yeah. But see, and that's, what's so interesting about this stuff. It's like, it's kind of like the you know, like you said, the unfinished business, it's just like, these things appear. They're like, oh, well, yeah, there's three levels.

Yeah. You're like, oh, okay. 

Like, sure. Whatever. 

But yeah. So that's where that that's very. 

Okay. So did you come across the Fox sisters at all? 

Was that in New York? Yes. Yes. Yes. Okay. So 

yeah, they were they ended up being three sisters, but it first started with the two youngest at the time. They were 15 and 13, a small farmhouse in New York, 1840 something, Maggie and Kate.

They began to hear what they, what they called wrappings. And that tended to be a word that is honestly still used to describe small taps or disembodied taps, maybe. Right. Like just a wrap wrapping. I don't know how to describe so they were able to kind of establish a line of communication with these sounds to wraps for yes, one rap for no type type thing.

And they begin to ask it questions and get responses. Just so happened. Their older sister who was 10 years older than Maggie, who was the older of the two, she was already a medium. . So at this time she would've been like 23, 25. That's she was already a practicing medium, which is interesting to me that it kind all, all happened in the same family, but some people are more sensitive to that kind of thing than others.

So I guess it makes sense. Right? So they, the girls, the younger girls demonstrated first to their family to show them what they had come across and they were able to do it and show people and it expanded slowly from just their family, to their neighbors, to now the community. And now all of a sudden people were coming from far and wide to experience these girls speaking to spirits.



Right. I would've been first in 

line. Right. Seriously. Like, wait a second. I do it too. What was I gonna say? It.  a, and they were in the newspaper like front page news, New York times or whatever it was back then that the Fox sisters were communicating with spirits, communicating with the dead. It was in the paper.

So, you know, it was very widely spread. Almost like common belief for back then, which is really interesting to me. So after a little while they began traveling and demonstrating their connection to spirit with their older sister and their older sister would help them conduct these at first. Well, even up until later in their career.

they had small intimate San seas for like a group, maybe a family or a couple and their best friends or something like that in these parlor rooms, in their beautiful Victorian houses.  so with like, of course, a beautiful setting, a beautiful table and, you know, plus chairs anyway, like that's just what I see in my  imagining 

a lot of ING.

Yeah. Velvet  lower. And they actually ended up doing like large ticketed events in like theaters and keep in mind, this is also the time that magicians and illusionists are traveling around mm-hmm. So you're seeing all kinds of new, amazing things that some people is telling you is an illusion. Other people are saying that it's magic and some people are saying that it's spirits.

So you just very it's. It all seems very exciting. I would definitely go to all of them. 

Yeah. 

Oh exactly. Yeah. However many times I can see it because every time it would be a little different, you know, cuz they'd be talking to different spirits, different exactly. Show different things. So they're actually credited with beginning and being the catalyst in the spiritualism movement in about 1848.

So that's when it really started to get traction. There's many more prominent eccentric personalities in the spiritualism movement. It sounds like you're gonna be talking about one in a little while. So about 20 years or so into this movement. Well, 1961 to 1965, the civil war broke out. So men husbands and brothers and husbands, brothers, fathers,  all the, all the men  were being spent.

Yeah. And, and not coming.  and they weren't able to say proper good goodbyes to their families. So women held seas in order to contact their loved ones to try and get some kind of closure to their relationship. I mean, that honestly is probably one of the most widely heard ghost stories is always a, a civil war soldier, you know, walking through the room or yes.

You know, a civil war soldier. Yes. You know, civil war battlefield. So that's a, a pretty commonly, you know, common story. But I, I believe that's also because these women were trying really hard to get a, of their, their loved ones. So that kinda spurred it on that kept going for a little bit. And there were lots of different mediums at the time.

So there were smaller, less popular ones. And then there were the big ones that you always tried to want to go see.  mm-hmm . Okay, so I'm gonna talk a little bit about what the technology was happening back then. Photographic technology was being pushed forward and SP people doing spiritualism mediums or spirit workers would, they were using it to capture spirit.

So we've all seen the, you know, go sleep picture you know, of, you know, the grandpa in the background or whatever, extra hand on the arm, you know, that kind of thing. So they were capturing that type of stuff. They were capturing orbs and ectoplasm. So it would be like a medium sitting doing her sand and you'd see the, you know, something coming out of her mouth.

like the residual energy or what, what have you. Yeah, so they have photographic evidence of this stuff too, which is really interesting.  The development of electricity was important because even now it's not that spirits can communicate through electric waves. So now we have like spirit boxes, right.

And, you know, turn the flashlight out, turn the flashlight off. We've all seen like ghost adventures or whatever ghosts. Oh yeah. So, so yeah, they definitely use electricity to talk to communicate with the spirits as well. So

you talk a little bit about like, say silences cuz they were a huge thing. And then I think we'll move on. I've got a couple more pages. Oh yeah. No, those are important. Okay. We got time  okay. So a seance literally in the dictionary is a gathering to attempt. A gathering to attempt to make contact with the dead.

So it doesn't specify how big, how many people, what your expertise has to be. It's just a gathering. And the methods are, you know, to a medium would ask questions. You hear the wrappings, or tappings a oui board. They developed those, you know, years into it. Sometimes you had a partner and you used trance.

So like the one main person would put somebody else in a trance or their partner in a trance, and then they could, they would talk through them or use automatic writing. I think I mentioned that already. And basically just what automatic writing was is just. , you're not paying attention to what you're writing and you have messages all of a sudden  so yeah, just, just really.

Wow. Yeah. So they used prophecy, Claire Voyance I'm gonna list off a few things that I don't know what they are also Claire audience. So they had Claire Voyance and then Claire audience, the gift of tongues. They use like healing with like laying on of hands visions, trans states. I don't know what this one is up up ports, a P P O R T S apports.

Oh, app pores. I've never heard 

that. I dunno what that is. I'll have to look it up. I should have looked it up. Revelations levitations automatic and independent writing.  Oh, and painting automatic painting. So you'd be in a trans state and then paint. And then that was your message. I guess. I don't photography, materialism, psychometry.

See, there's a few in here that I'm like you direct and independent voice and other manifestations leading. So they, even at the end of this like description they're like, and other stuff, , it's just all of it. And then manifestations of spiritualistic activities would be movement of bodies without touch, but no exertion with touch, but no exertion.

So just a gentle touch could cause you know, someone to fly across the room or something. Body's changing weight, which I thought was interesting. So you just like swap with someone  real quick. Yeah. Yeah. Let's I don't know. Movement of large objects far away from the medium. So it'd be like a whole couch sliding across or like a, a more or whatever rising of tables and chairs without touch and levitation of people, movements of small objects while not being touched.

So just, and then it always specifies at the end, literally, anything else, like other things that are not listed here, so it really could be anything. Right. Which brings me to my next point, there were a lot of doubters, a lot of naysayers, and there were also charlatans. So people that would be proven that they weren't telling the truth.

And so it kind of perpetuate this idea of like, well, is this person a magician? Just, they have some slight of hand or are they genuinely reaching these spirits? So it, it caused You know, it cause some dispute within different, you know, different people. So some sought to disprove, disprove them completely.

Some made it, they would go to different mediums and seek them out in order to figure out how they were doing things and be able to disprove it. Right. So they would use some mediums would use tricks or slide of hand. And actually there was kind of a famous figure who ended up making his end of life's work, trying to disprove spiritualism.

So the famous Harry Houdini who lived from 1874, yes, 1926. He, he made his life, his life's work to be a mysterious entertainer. That was his whole thing. He was an escape artist, an illusionist, an a stump performer, but he sought to disprove and expose and he did disprove and expose mediums publicly. He would go straight to their thing and call him out and be like, bitch, I saw that move  I saw your hands.

He really sought, like, he did not care about embarrassing these people in front of everybody because he felt what he was doing was honest. He said, I am an illusionist. I am an escape artist. But he felt that people that were lying about it were being dishonest about what they were doing and how they were doing it so 

well.

And because, I mean, they're really, truly pre on people that are very vulnerable and absolutely desperate to you know, because of course you still have, you know, high. Mortality rate. Right. You know? And so you are gonna still lose, you know, a lot of children aren't going to, you know, make it to adulthood and, and losing your spouses and all of those things are just gonna happen.

And these people were right there to capitalize on that. Yeah. 

Yeah. You know, with guarantees and, you know, just, just ready to go. Yeah, no, you're right. So he has this quote that he says, this, this thing they call spiritualism where an, a medium intercommunicate with the dead is a fraud from start to finish period.

Mic drop . He has like, he was 

just like, absolutely not. Yeah. Was like utter not. 

Right. So there was this guy, maybe I forgot about what the deal with this guy was. I might have to look it up right now. His name was Conan Doyle. Oh, I can't look it up. Yes. He leaned more towards, yep. 

Arthur, what? Doyle? The man?

Yes or Arthur? Yes. And Doyle. 

Yes. I forget. Was he trying to disprove? 

Oh, Don know honey, he 

be, yeah. Okay. So he was a big believer and they had been friends before they had been buddies before. And then later on, they were not friends anymore with Harry Houdini. 

Oh yeah. They were like, yeah. They're enemies total off and okay.

Here. Yeah, he actually I took a pause in writing Sherlock home stories to devote his time to spiritualism and he wrote like a two volume. Oh, what's the name of it? I used to know off the top of my head, but now I don't. Oh, yeah. He wrote over 24 books about spiritualism in favor of okay. And a two volume called the history of spiritualism, which I'm sure is like reading.

Yeah. 

I'm sure. Right. So super easy to understand and grasp the concepts. So what, what Harry Houdini wanted to do is show that there was a scientific explanation for everything. And let's be honest, sometimes there isn't , I mean, there's a lot more that we understand now than they understood. Then we talk, we've talked about this before, but absolutely sometimes weird stuff just happens.

I don't know. You know, some people enough people have had you think about experiences with spirits that I do feel that they, that they're out there, you know, it's possible maybe to connect with them. I don't know. I haven't tried. Have you ever done a sand. 

I have not. Yeah, no, no, I have not done. I was invited to one at a local we have a Cove and they are in a very haunted house.

I was able to tour that, that house. And yes, so they do regular seas and you know, you are welcome to those people are welcome to the, to come to those. And I was, I was going to, but I just, I don't know why I was just like, eh, yeah, I don't know about that. I, 

I don't know. I actually, okay. So one time in high school, we did get a oui board and we did try it out and we did freak ourselves out because at the time, I don't know if you guys did this in high school, but.

One of our friends had a car. So we would all pile in the car  on the weekends or after school or whatever. Actually, I think this was after high school, maybe last summer after high school. And go to a park or fast food, but mostly you're just driving around town because nobody wants to be at home.

Yeah. So cheap. Oh yeah. We would drive and drive and drive. Now I'm like try to make 

I'm driving. Where and how many stops am I gonna be making? Cuz I'm not going out again. I'm doing all the things running. Yeah, no. Yeah. So we had gone to, we got this Ji board. We were to a park. I'm pretty sure it was Halloween now that I'm thinking about it.

And yeah, we scare ourselves. I don't know. And then I just never have done it again. Yeah. Yeah. 

Did you on purpose go by the graveyard? Yeah, like on, well, we had 

just heard that there was this particular park that we used to call HQ, like head. That somebody had recently died there. So we were like, oh, let's try to  connect with this person.

We were, yeah. Oh yeah. Gross. Yeah. No. Now that I'm thinking about it, we used to go to abandoned buildings and so, so dangerous children, kids don't try to at up, oh, we used to abandon buildings because out here they're all on the outskirts of town, as soon as you get outta town, they're everywhere. So yeah, we should do that kind of stuff too.

Anyways, I forget how we got on this. 

I, I could tell people like quick PSA on abandoned buildings and riding around. So very long story short. So we would go, and of course this is before, you know, digital cameras and all that. So you, we had like our like 35 millimeter, you know, camera. So I love to go and photograph abandon, you know, houses, buildings, whatever.

And so we you know, we found one that we, I, I had never seen before. And  my now husband was with me. And so we, our rule was, we would never do anything that like to break in, you know, so if they had like plywood, you know, nailed across and there was open door, we would not break windows. We would not do any of that.

So that was the rule, if not all beds were off. And it's amazing though one ever got pet us. But so , so this house we, it, we couldn't get in, they had it, what we thought was locked up tight. So we weren't gonna, yeah, we weren't gonna break anything and whatever. So I don't remember how much longer after that, but it was.

No more than, you know, two to four months later, and this house is on the news. And they found a very, very, very decomposed body. Someone had been, you guys would've come across it. 

Oh my gosh, 

exactly. Yes, we did the math on that. Didn't like the math on that. Oh my goodness. But yes, if we had broken in yeah, so it was kind of like a, eh, cause it was like, they would've been found a lot sooner, but then again, I we'd all be.

Yeah. I don't know. Yeah, I don't know. But yeah, so yeah, that yep. Personally is very quickly caught and you know, I'm sure loving prison, but I mean, it was a drug, you know, thing and just like, oh my God, that's so crazy. So yeah. That was the closest I've ever come to a, a . 

Well, I'm glad you guys had that rule.

That's 

OK. I'm OK with that. Yeah. Yep. So got, yeah, I gotta see if I can find the pictures of that house that we took. I'm sure I've got 'em but yeah. Haven't like the actual, you know, pictures. Oh my gosh. A long time printed 

out actual pictures. Yeah. 

Yeah. Still. I mean, it's still there still a band still 

there.

Scary stuff. Yeah. So, no, I've never been, I've never been.

Yeah. Would you do want, I just, I don't know. So I have a a conflict with seances. I, I have a major conflict there and I'm sure a lot of it comes from my Christianity, you know, I'm sure. But I just.  and it probably some of it probably is that skepticism a little bit. I'm sure. You know, but it's not that I definitely, it's not that I don't believe because, you know, we've had things that, you know, my own house that we have happened all the time that I'm like, yeah, that's just, okay, great.

And people that, you know, like my grandmother, for instance you know, has a paranormal, several paranormal stories and she is not the woman, you know, to mess around and believe in these things. So you're kinda like, Ugh, that's, you know, that makes me kinda like that's, you know, that's hard to really debunk because that's not her, you know not a fanciful woman, let's just say.

And so yeah.  but so I don't know what it is like about the actual seance. I think there's still part of me that believes that there is definitely evil obviously in the world. And I guess I believe in that other side of things too. So I guess the whole seance thing makes me very 

nervous. Okay. Sorry.

My husband was calling. It shoot. No, you need to pause. Uh, Yeah. Let me pause for just a minute. I think it started it over, honestly, that recording. I need to tell the kids to stop doing this. What they're doing. Hey, listen. No, come back, please. Come back, please.

What did we talk about? Okay. Did you feed the dogs? Okay. Go feed the dogs and stay away from the store, please. Thank you.

Okay, sorry about that. They, I could hear them coming up and going and then running away little turds

oh, 

anyways. That's okay. Yeah, the like it's muted, but I 

can 

see here.

all right. Where were we? Okay, so, so yeah, no, I think I kind of have the same thing about Sans. I mean, I just got my terror  for the first time this year. And I do believe that I'm a spiritual person. I do believe that I can contact the greater, you know, creator, you know, I do feel like I can pray and, and tap into that.

Right. But the, I think the invitation of opening up.  your mind or whatever to anything could, like you said, like it could be opening up to evil and you have to know how to close the door. I've heard them. I, I heard them talking about that. You open it, you have to close it. Like what door  all the doors are closed.

Exactly. 

I know. I feel like open it accidentally. And then of course I'm gonna have 

idea. No, I, I just, I just haven't gotten there. I know. And I don't know if I will, I don't know. Yeah. The same. Okay. So I have a couple more points and then we can move on. So modern spiritualism and I had a list that's on my phone of all the things that they believe, and now I don't have access to it.

I would encourage everybody to look up modern spiritualism. So currently in California, I looked up there are about 10. Spirit church of spiritualism. That's what they're called in in California. So the closest one for me is Santa Barbara. That's like two hours away, but it's really interesting to me that they have brick and mortar buildings now that are the church of spiritualism, but then you can see and contact a medium and do a private seance too, you know?

So it's just, it's still working the same way where there's the larger aspect of it. And then the more intimate, I don't know, ability to, to meet someone face to face also, and do you know, a seance or reading or something like that. I used to watch that long island media  did you ever watch. 

You know, I only recently started and I gotta tell you I was gonna bring that up.

I even jotted that down on mine. What do you think about, you know, some of these, you know, famous? So I, I guess what initially made me kind of start, you know, I saw a video or something and I was like, oh wow. And then I, as I've watched, like some of the shows, I'm like, eh, that's a little weak. Yeah.

You know, but then again, I don't know if I'm being I dunno what the word, I mean, skeptical, I guess. Yes. But I don't know. There's just sometimes about like some of those that I'm just like, yeah. Yeah. And you know, and then the people will like interrupt. 

They give them extra and I'm like, like, yeah, that's the one, you know?

So yeah. I could see that, that there's a lot of like maybe observation, but also like influence in the conversation to like steer it a certain way. And so maybe some of he's really good at that. I mean, have you, so again, I'm bringing up something from like pop culture, but psych, have you, do you watch psych  oh, so that again, like he's not a psychic,

it's one that we watch with everybody. No. 

Oh, we love, oh, we love psych. Oh my gosh. So that's another one. Like you 

fallen on Twitter and  yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, it's the same kind of situation he can say. You know, he's very observant and very, you know, out. Is that is he he's very performance, like, yeah. Yeah.

It's all about the performance and the showing off. And how do 

you feel like about her about long? How do you feel about her long island, long island meeting, long Teresa 

to PDO, right. I, okay. So I used to watch back when, probably during the same time that we used to go like ghost hunting or whatever Earl at 18, 19 late twenties.

I was so enthralled. I mean, I would cry along with these people that she would. So I think that, so part of me does believe that she's cuz there's some things that they come up with. That's just like how I don't, how would you know that little minute detail of like a, a nickname or whatever, but then we see.

Psych doing it.  where, you know, he sees a, a pin on somebody and that's their pet name for whoever and, you know, and anyway, yeah. So I don't know. Now I'm cautiously optimistic. I'd like to think that there are some people out there that are genuine and maybe helping people work through their grief and things like that.

But I know there's not also like on the other side of it, like, which, you know, there's always somebody ready to take advantage. Yeah. Which is all 

like we saw in, you know, in these examples, you know, I think like the lady I talked about has more evidence or I'm going to talk back, excuse me. You know, has more evidence in okay.

Her favor being legitimate, but then you had the others and I wish I had written this lady's name down. It starts with a C That was during that timeframe. And I thought of her immediately, immediately, when you were talking about the ECSM, she would do say I'm naked and she would have it coming from of course, as they would say between her legs and of course from her mouth.

And wasn't it nuts and I'm not sure that it was her, but I, I think it probably was, but how they figured out how they were able to like stuff cloth it was almost like folks that can do the sword swallowing, right? Oh yeah. Yeah. So have the ability then make it look like right. You know, that's what was happening, but it was really just like lost or whatever, and I'm just, Ooh, number one, but like, you're really pushing your 

body to this and number.

I'm sorry. Say it again. Yeah. Yeah. 

Right. Get patient 

to your craft or to your show or whatever, to your performance. Yeah. Yeah. And like really pushing just, yeah. It's gross. Yeah. Yeah.  

but I mean like today though you know, the money that they would make was no small, you know? Yeah. Thing for sure. So I have, so I found a very intense article  on the new Yorker.

And this was from 2021, but it said that one third of Americans say that they have communicated with a spirit. One third, that's a pretty, in some way, shape or form one third. And today is a 2 billion billion dollar a year. Industry psychic service 

2 billion a year. Yes. See, yes. People are really missed their loved ones.

that's really sad. 

Exactly. And so there's just so many parallels between, you know, yeah. Even back then and you know, now, I mean, you're gonna have, you know, potentially your re very real, you know, folks, and then you're gonna have probably for every real one who knows how many very talented, observant, yeah.

You know, people and today, I mean, people don't even think about like, I would love to get a reading by some of these people, since I have, I don't live my life on Facebook and online. They would have to work really hard, you know, to come up with, you know, some detail because they're not out there just, you know, I don't, I just don't do it.

I. Exactly. So so that would be very interesting. So it's always made me think very cynically, but that, you know, like I wouldn't get, wouldn't get picked, you know, if I went to like the audience, you know, , 

you're like no  thing. 

So yeah. But let me skip through, cause I talked about yeah. The churches and stuff and the millions of people that identify as spiritualists and oh yes.

Okay. So that brings us to brings me to Leah Nora Piper. And so she was born 1859 and lived until 1950. So yes, quite a lifespan. So she, that was weird. A lifespan.

A life let's just get rid of the span. That was weird. So she was born in New Hampshire to a quite devout and religious family. And she, they said that later on as her gifts become more world renowned that she as a child definitely had a gift. They described the earliest and the biggest thing as her talking, telling her family about and having impossible knowledge of the death of an aunt that the family receives notice of via telegram letter.

Yeah, not sure. Got my time frames all mixed up. Anyway, one of those very snail mail, you know, types of ways. Two days later that the aunt had died. And she has already told her family about this and, and details and things that she couldn't have possibly. Yeah. You know, know. So and there's some other things that's not the only one, that's one of the biggest so at 22 she does get married and moves to Boston.

She lives in the, the beacon hill area of Boston. And she does have two, two girls, her and her husband have two girls. She's, you know, a housewife, you know, all those things, which would be obvious for, for that time period. And so a lot of sources are kind of vague and then this one was very specific and I'm kind of like, you know why I'm not, so I'm not sure about the, you know, validity of this, but one thing that every source agrees on is that at some point after the birth of her first daughter, She experienced some sort of serious like chronic illness.

So I think the, and I can't ever get the name of this place. Right? Like all the letters of it, the center for psychical research, you know? Okay. That whole thing. No, you don't know.  

no, 

I'll find  somewhere in here. I know I wrote it down cause I was like, I'll never remember that and sure enough, I don't, oh, the American branch of the British society research, we're now going center for Al research.

But so, but they, they state, and of course they've got all the good records that she had some sort of childhood accident and. For some reason after the birth of her first child this, you know, becomes exacerbated again, which is kinda weird and vague. But then this one source said that she had actually fallen on the street and struck her head on the pavement and started having very severe headaches.

And she went to a doctor and they could not find anything medically wrong with, you know, of course it's hard to tell. Yeah. Build  figure that. Yeah. We still don't understand the brain completely. And so they refer her to a psychologist. So you keep that in your hat. I thought that was very interesting.

Because yeah, so so she does do that. And she starts to experience more. I wanna call 'em visions or communications. It's sort of, she hadn't really been doing much with that gift, you know, in her, after, you know, childhood and being married and that kind of thing. So it seems to be, there's definitely a tie between whatever happened after the birth of her first child, whether it was an illness or if she really did fall and hit her head.

This brings about a kind of new level to her, her gift. So she she's working with a psychologist and she starts to do some readings for just close friends and family. So you know, very small affairs and she's really, really accurate. And so what these people are determining is that there's no way that she could know some of the things that she's talking about, but of course, you've got the thing that these are close friends and family.

So, you know, could very much be the desperation, the just really wanting, you know, for for it to be true, you know, that she really is able to communicate with right. With whoever. But she ends up. And this is actually her father-in-law that recommends her to a man who is a blind psychic healer.

And she, and this is again, you know, is trying to help her with these headaches and, and or illness, you know, which whichever. And so she has the first visit and she feels a little funny. She's feels like she might faint, but she doesn't. So on the second visit with him, she actually falls into a trance.

Here we go. Mm-hmm  and she, she is out. Yes. And so she, there is a witness there and it's actually a judge. And so didn't get a first name, but judge Ross, they have him there. And so I don't know. I don't know this is coming from the psychical research. It exist today from their website and their, and they have all the research that was done on Le Nora, which is quite extensive.

So he is there and I'm not sure if it's because of her first visit and maybe the knowledge that she now I'm speculate. I'm completely speculating. But I'm curious if the psychologist might have had someone come in just because of her. 

Yeah. And I 

imagine, no. Yeah. 

This was still in like the 18 somethings, right?

Yeah. So, oh yeah. A grown man with a young girl or a young woman, you probably would need at least one more person all the time.  But maybe he was there to like verify and maybe he was some kind of like prominent figure. I mean, if he's a judge back then you're some, you're prominent figure in the area.

And so maybe people would believe him, like it gives more credibility to whatever happens. Well, 

that's definitely yes, that's definitely part of it. So he is there, she goes in this trance and she starts writing. She gets up from the chair, walks over, picks up a pencil paper presumably from this, you know, psychologist desk or something in the room.

And she starts just furiously writing. Then she takes the paper that she's written, whatever on and hands it to the judge and then goes and sits back in her chair.  Still in a trans state for for some time. So of course when, and she doesn't know until she wakes up and finds out that what she had written on that paper was completely coherent legible the whole nine and it had to do, it was a message from the judge's son who had died in an accident 30 years prior.

Oh, 

chills. Oh my gosh. 

I

was just too much to write down. So I took some screenshots about what the judge said,

at least I think I did.

Had 'em numbered, but now they're not numbered. 

Oh,

well crap. I guess men too. Anyway, I'll just have to link to it, I suppose,

to the article, cuz it was really cool. I will. Okay. So

see,

ah, okay. So by now it's 1885 and word, of course at this point because of the judge's credibility it. She's exploding, you know, this is no longer a family and friends, you know, kind of secret anymore. So she is consulted by the mother-in-law and sister-in-law of a Harvard professor of psychology William James, and he had actually

started, yes. He actually started the American branch of the British center for psychical research. I'm wondering how many times I could say psych, there we go. Psych without making so obviously he's, I mean, he's gonna have some credibility as well. He's also, I think the first professor to bring psychology, like to start teaching psychology in the university and run as a professional, you know, way mm-hmm

So he is a smart guy, you know? And, but he also obviously has this interest. So he has a sitting with her. It goes very, very well, of course his mother-in-law and sister-in-law their sitting had gone very well. And so he starts thinking, you know, she might actually be the real deal. So he conducts many, many sittings with her using controls you know, research methods, that kind of thing to try and get, you know, a real read on her.

So of course he's busy, I guess, being at Harvard. And so he has Richard Hodgson HOD, Hodgson. I'm going with it. Who was the executive secretary for the society. And he in his own right. Was a professor of law and philosophy. So, you know, he's right. You know, he's no dummy, I guess. But he's also well known for his skeptical approach to investigating these you know, mediums and things like that.

So in 1888 they start serious investigations and experiments. And these experiments with Leonard went on for over 20 years. They were 

really, yes. Wow. Okay. Really trying. 

Yes. And she was she was never, ever proven to be a fraud. That being said, though. So the skeptics would say that well let me not do that.

Let me talk about the methods that they took to make sure that she was not a fraud when they were do while doing their research. So this is the, the length that they would go to. They would actually hire private investigators to follow her and volunteers from the society, things like that to make sure that she was not, you know researching or somehow getting information about someone of course they would set up the people, they called them the sitters, you know, the ones that were gonna come in and have the the reading, the, the seance, whatever with her.

But they would use you know, false names, that kind of thing. And she would actually call the people by their real names.

So  yes. And they so they would prevent any requests for information about likely sitters, they, by monitoring any letters and correspondence that she had. They would question the children and servants of the potential sitter. They would research family diaries and photograph albums and would completely have them removed so that anywhere she might be in this person's house, she is not going, they're locked up and kept away.

They would search the house at night and to make sure that she was staying in her room or in, you know, wherever she was allowed to be.  They would check against any bribing of servants to tell her who the sitter was gonna be searched her luggage for any directories biographies. Yeah.

And everyone was instructed, you know from the family to the servants to refrain from loose talk in her presence. So they they tried really hard to, to make all of that happen. But of course, you know, she wasn't a hundred percent all of the time. And so some of her skeptics would say that her physical contact with the sitters, like holding their hands enabled feedback,  by the process used by stage performers known as muscle reading.

And I was like, oh, I didn't even think about that. She also had, like, I know some people call like their spirit guide or, or something like that. She would channel this French doctor and it, I don't know how you say this. It's P H I N U I T

I don't know. So this spirit that she would channel to, to tell people, things was claimed that was a doctor in the 19th century Marsai. But no records could ever be found to prove yeah. The identity. And when she was channeling this entity, then she had no knowledge or wasn't able, I would provide any specifics about like knowing French, for example or okay.

Or anything about medicine. So yeah, I gotta, that's not good at all. Okay.

It's right here. I should have set it up before.

But I did not think I would be on my phone, so it's alright.

true. Okay. So sorry about that.

That's okay. And so they also said there was blatant fishing for information by benit and his, cause it was a male doctor, this personality his habit of passing off details. Okay. Given by them as coming from him. And this was not great either. I plausible claims by some of her communicators to be famous spirits like Walter Scott, and Julius Caesar and evil characters.

Oh wow. Characters and novel. That's not good. Yeah. Things of course, the usual that could be explained by chance. And yeah, so they had some good points there. I can't say, you know, that they didn't. So but like I said, she was never officially, you know, called in a fraudulent thing. I did. Oh yeah.

So the last thing I wanna talk about is just some quotes from her in describing her trance. So this is how she described her trance states that she would go in, which would either result in some automatic writing or the spirit of the, the French doctor you know, that would speak through her.

So she says, I feel as if something were passing over my brain, making it numb a sensation, similar to that I experienced when I was authorized. Only the unpleasant odor of the ether is absent. I feel a little cold too. Not very, just a little as if a cold breeze passed over me and people and objects become smaller until they finally disappear.

Then I know nothing more until I wake up. When the first thing I am conscious of is a bright, very, very bright light. And then darkness such darkness, my hands and my arms begin to tingle just as one's foot tingles after it has been asleep. And I see as if from a great distance objects and people in the room, but they are very small and very black.

Wow. 

She's like really far away. 

Yeah. That. . Wow. Yes. And so the Hodson the, the one that was the executive secretary and had been the professor of law and philosophy. So in his first sitting, which was May 4th, 1887 this is when she goes into a trans state and the French doctor is speaking. So she, so anyway, begins to give accurate details about Hodgkin's family members.

Wow. Both living and deceased. So Fette mentions the name, Fred and Hodgson says, I said that it might be my cousin and she says, he says, you went to school together. He goes on jumping frogs and laughs. He says he used to get the better of you. He had convulsive movements before his death struggles. He went off in a sort of spasm and you were not there.

And so Hodgson says my cousin, Fred far excelled, any other person that I have seen in the games of leapfrog fly the garter.  I dunno what that he took very long flying jumps and whenever he played the game was lined by crowds of schoolmates to watch him, he injured his sign in a gymnasium in Melbourne, Australia in 1871 and was carried to the hospital where he lingered for a fortnight with occasional spasmodic convulsions in one of which he died.

Just 

spot on just, yeah. That's so specific. 

Yeah. I mean, leap frog. It's like I was gonna see if I had any other, I don't think so. Any other personal posts, there's a ton. So they, you know, reference all kinds of sittings and people describing exactly what she she told them. And I believe she she ended up dying in complete, you know, obscurity.

She stepped away from all of it around, I think, 19, 11 mm-hmm  was her last breed, I think or at least, you know, publicized that we would know about. And yeah, so as quickly, you know, she was shoot by the time she died, you know, it was all forgotten. But yeah, so, but they definitely at the, the center for psycho research, they absolutely while they acknowledge the.

You know, like, especially how like Hodgson is one and for, for sure that, you know, he became, so just too close to really be objective anymore. Mm-hmm  in his control of experiments. So, and it also seemed like the bigger she got, the more it started to get ridiculous. So, but the early ones are pretty 

interesting.

That's interesting. That's so cool. And you said she lived all the way until 1950. So she had a pretty, I mean, we were saying long lifespan, but wow. The things she must have seen one something, sorry. 

Mm-hmm  and it, it was neat. You know, we stayed married to that husband. He passed away before her. Okay.

Her daughters, I believe, never married. And they one died shortly after her. And then the other one died later alone in a nursing facility, you know, so just very interesting. Especially to have been that famous, I mean, she was multiple trips overseas to England and things like that. I mean, when I say well known, she was very, very well known and, and just wonder how that felt to just be under research for 20 plus years, you know, just, huh.

Yeah. So, 

yeah, yeah, yeah. 

She's well documented. That's for sure.

So yeah, you guys, I, I doubt this'll be the last time that we talk about spiritualism. It's. Too much and no, yes. We didn't even scratch the surface. That is for sure there all kinds of amazing characters  in it. And some that like her may actually have been the real deal, but we definitely wanna hear anything that you guys might want to say or know about spiritual.

I was actually, 

we love to hear horrors that have maybe that time period in 'em because I love movie, like period movies, historical fiction and stuff like that. But I watched, we love the ionist around here, so that's a good one. But today I watched Blythe spirit, which is a remake from the 1940s. They just did it in 2000, I think 20.

And it is like kind of a comical spiritualism type movie, but I watched it today. It was really good.  it was really good. So I definitely suggested. And if anybody knows of some other ones shoot, 'em more away because I love that time period. Where did you this one I actually did or because it, it looked really good.

Okay. So it was on Amazon prime. It's like $12 or something like that. And the illusionist we've I think we own it too. So I don't know on Amazon I'm sure.  cause we just watch it so often.  

yeah. Okay.

No, that awesome. All right guys. Well if you don't mind, I don't think I ever remember to say this, but if you have the time and you like us give us a rating on or a review on apple iTunes, I think is the only one that still really, really matters. We would love to see it. There's a few other platforms.

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So please interact with us and let us know. We're still hoping to collect some paranormal stories and things like that. We would love to get to a point where we get to share some listener stories. Keep that in mind too.  did I cover everything? Yes. Okay. Thanks guys. You next time